Legislature(2013 - 2014)BUTROVICH 205
03/19/2014 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB160 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | SB 160 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | HB 135 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 19, 2014
3:30 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Cathy Giessel, Chair
Senator Fred Dyson, Vice Chair
Senator Peter Micciche
Senator Click Bishop
Senator Lesil McGuire
Senator Anna Fairclough
Senator Hollis French
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 160
"An Act authorizing the commissioner of natural resources to
implement a hunting guide concession program or otherwise limit
the number of individuals authorized to conduct big game
commercial guiding on state land."
- HEARD & HELD
HOUSE BILL NO. 135
"An Act relating to the reservation of certain mining claims
from all uses incompatible with the purposes for establishing
the Petersville Recreational Mining Area."
- MOVED HB 135 OUT OF COMMITTEE ON 3/17/14
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: SB 160
SHORT TITLE: DNR: HUNTING GUIDES, CONCESSION PROGRAM
SPONSOR(s): SENATOR(s) COGHILL
02/07/14 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/07/14 (S) RES, FIN
03/14/14 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
03/14/14 (S) <Bill Hearing Postponed>
03/17/14 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
03/17/14 (S) Heard & Held
03/17/14 (S) MINUTE(RES)
03/19/14 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
WITNESS REGISTER
CHAD HUTCHISON, staff to Senator John Coghill
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 160 for the sponsor.
ROBERT FITHIAN, representing himself
Lower Katina, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
TED SPRAKER, Chairman
Board of Game
Soldotna, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
KELLY VREM, Master Guide 102, representing himself
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
TOM KIRSTEIN, Master Guide 98, representing himself
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
JOEY KLUTSCH, Registered Guide 1277, representing himself
King Salmon, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
ATLIN DAUGHERTY, Registered Guide 1250, representing himself
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
WADE WILLIS, representing himself
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 160.
BRAD DENNISON, Master Guide 138, representing himself
Sitka, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
SMOKEY DON DUNCAN, Master Guide 136, representing himself
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 160.
TIM BOOCH, Master Guide Outfitter 176, representing himself
Kodiak, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 160.
THOR STACEY, lobbyist
Alaska Professional Hunters Association (APHA)
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
CLIFFORD SMITH, Registered Guide 1318, representing himself
Wasilla, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 160.
AL GILLIAM, Registered Master Guide 185, representing himself
Haines, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
STEVE PERRINS, Master Guide 123, representing himself
Rainy Pass Lodge, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
HENRY TIFFANY, Master Guide 144, representing himself
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
MIKE COWAN, Registered Guide 1126, representing himself
Soldotna, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 160.
FRANK BISHOP, Master Guide 191, representing himself
Kodiak, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Whole-heartedly supported SB 160.
JASON BUNCH, Registered Guide 1311, representing himself
Kodiak, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
DAVID LAZER, Master Guide 175, representing himself
Los Angeles, California
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 160.
ANNA STOCKER, representing herself
Wasilla, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 160.
NATE TURNER, Registered Guide 1036, Vice Chair
Board of Game
Fairbanks, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
STEVE PERRINS, II, Registered Guide 1295, representing himself
Alaska Range Remote Hunting Lodge
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160.
COKE WALLACE, Master Guide 172, representing himself
Healy, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 160.
TRACY VREM, Master Guide 96
Chugiak, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 160, "warts and all."
ACTION NARRATIVE
3:30:20 PM
CHAIR CATHY GIESSEL called the Senate Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 3:30 p.m. Present at the call to
order were Senators Fairclough, McGuire, and Chair Giessel.
SB 160-DNR: HUNTING GUIDES, CONCESSION PROGRAM
3:31:06 PM
CHAIR GIESSEL announced that the Resources Committee would
continue its discussion of SB 160.
3:31:11 PM
CHAD HUTCHISON, staff to Senator Coghill, sponsor of SB 160,
said the general idea of this bill is to allow the DNR
commissioner the ability to create a guide concession program
(GCP) or otherwise restrict the number of commercial guides on
state land.
3:31:43 PM
SENATOR BISHOP joined the committee.
SENATOR FRENCH joined the committee.
3:32:03 PM
MR. HUTCHISON said two salient points came out of Monday's
testimony and one touched on a theme of federal overreach: the
Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is preparing a statewide guide
capacity study and environmental assessment; they are already
through the assessment phase, but have halted their work now to
see what the state was going to do. The BLM will certainly fill
the void if the state does not proceed with the guide concession
program.
3:32:36 PM
SENATOR DYSON joined the committee.
3:32:49 PM
Secondly, Mr. Hutchison said, Senator Coghill believed that if
the GCP is implemented by DNR, it will help local resident
hunters.
3:33:52 PM
ROBERT FITHIAN, Guide License 126, representing himself, Lower
Katina, Alaska, supported SB 160. He said he has 30-plus years
of providing a family operated professional guide service within
Alaska. He had also conducted many projects, leadership services
within the guiding, mining, and agricultural and forestry
industries as well as serving on a number of related council,
boards, and commissions. He currently was serving as the elected
national spokesperson for the seven long-standing individual
State Professional Outfitter and Guide Associations of America
(USPOGAA) as well as the representative for America's guide and
outfitter and tourism industries within the bipartisan Wildlife
Hunting Heritage Conservation Council in Washington, D.C.
He said SB 160 will provide long-term viability and
sustainability to this important rural Alaska industry. Without
GCP there is no way he would encourage viable new entry
initiative into it. He also strongly believed that the failure
of former legislators to approve this GCP had done more to
generate the nucleus of usurping state management authority by
the federal government than any other action since the passing
of ANILCA. These include development of deep and dividing dual
wildlife management actions that reduced or eliminated mandated
state/federal cooperation, as well as utilization of the
Endangered Species Act that restricts prudent stewardship within
Alaska. The cost of this to Alaska as a whole is incalculable,
he said, and adoption of the GCP at this time will help sustain
and eventually regain state authority.
MR. FITHIAN said he had seen the same equation play out in
numerous western states and in each case resident hunters put
forth initiatives that addressed these failures, which also
reduced the number of non-resident hunters through restricted
measures that eliminated the viability of professional hunting
guide businesses. The results were: elimination of many long
time established guide businesses, significantly reduced rural
economies, significant loss of important state-generated funding
for wildlife conservation through non-resident license sales,
substantial loss of matching Pittman-Robertson Wildlife
Restoration funding, and reduced overall wildlife conservation
and stewardship.
With the GCP established, the Board of Game can be confident and
fair with their conservation-based decisions regarding
allocation of social considerations, which will benefit all
hunters, including resident hunters. Furthermore, the
stewardship-based selection criteria for the GCP will help build
and sustain industry professionalism, which Alaska will be proud
to provide. He had worked with DNR many times and had faith that
it can and will provide a GCP program that will work and only
get better with time. He reminded them that no other renewable
natural resource provides the returns to Alaska per capita that
wildlife does.
3:38:03 PM
SENATOR MICCICHE joined the committee.
3:39:57 PM
TED SPRAKER, Chairman, Board of Game, Soldotna, Alaska,
supported SB 160. He said he had been involved in and supportive
of the DNR's concept of a system to stabilize guide activities
on state lands from the very beginning and he noted the three
letters of support from the Board. As identified in the letters,
he said the Board respects and recognizes the historic role this
industry has had in providing safe and successful hunting
experiences to Alaska's visitors. Yet, it is increasingly
challenged with competition between resident and guided non-
resident hunters in several well-identified areas, which has
resulted in statewide proposals to limit or exclude non-
residents. The Board believes that if only the problem area is
addressed, the conflict will spread to other areas and relocate
rather than solving the problem.
He said implementing a statewide GCP on state land will improve
the relationship between resident hunters and guides. It will
also increase the state stewardship responsibilities by
permitting the department to lease guide use areas for up to 10
years effectively eliminating the problem of guides
overharvesting an area and moving to a new area every few years.
With the Big Game Commercial Services Board certifying 8-12 new
registered guides each year, this problem will only get worse.
An example of competition between residents and guided non-
residents was recently dealt with by the Board in Game
Management Unit 13(d), part of the Chugach Range between
Anchorage and Glennallen, where guide numbers for sheep
increased from just a few to about 36. Resident hunters and
guides came to the Board asking that this area be restricted to
a limited draw permit area to address the crowding problem. This
request resulted in the Board restricting hunter numbers by a
limited permit draw system displacing resident and guided non-
resident hunters to other parts of the state. He said there are
several other areas in the state with similar crowding
situations. Creating this program will also encourage local
employment and working with local communities to provide meat
from animals harvested by non-resident hunters.
MR. SPRAKER said it was important that the Board of Game and the
Big Game Commercial Services Board continue to work with DNR to
address specific problem areas and issues into the future.
3:44:15 PM
KELLY VREM, Master Guide 102, representing himself, Juneau,
Alaska, supported SB 160. He said failing to pass this bill will
result in lottery-type hunts and his business can't exist in an
atmosphere where he has no certainty of income from year to
year. The entire industry would be reduced to a bunch of part-
time guides. He said he used to be a state land guide and fled
the state system for the federal areas, because they were
stable. This is very important.
3:46:05 PM
TOM KIRSTEIN, Master Guide 98, representing himself, Fairbanks,
Alaska, supported SB 160. He said he had been guiding for 40
years and operates in the Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge and
the Interior Alaska on state land. Deregulation in the industry
in the early 1990s led them to this point and new guides without
training has led to the need to address game populations.
He said that federal lands had been controlled since the early
1990s, but in the big picture, problems with non-regulated
guides on state land need to be fixed. The guide industry needs
guidelines to live by which will be in the best interests of the
state into the future.
3:51:10 PM
SENATOR FAIRCLOUGH asked if he got to say everything he wanted.
MR. KIRSTEIN replied that he had enjoyed a long history in the
guiding business and would like to continue, but it needs
parameters for people to work in. He had seen displacement of
hunters, guides running into guides, resident issues, conflicts
in the field, and the resource changing dramatically, but he
thought it could be fixed with regulations and laws.
3:53:04 PM
SENATOR BISHOP asked if he thought this was the right way to go
for young guys getting into the business.
MR. KIRSTEIN replied that he thought this was the right way to
go, because every other place in the big picture of the hunting
world has regulations; Alaska state land is the only exception.
The federal agencies recognized the problem in the early 1990s
and came to the state four years in a row. So, now there is
federal management on those lands. The state lost control of
them, but he wanted to think the state could get them back.
He said the hunting world is small, but there are two famous
places that people look at: Africa and Alaska. Canada is right
next door and they are up and coming, but they don't have
everything that Alaska has. State land is a problem and the way
game areas are designed (to overlay federal land) affects other
lands.
3:56:04 PM
JOEY KLUTSCH, Registered Guide 1277, representing himself, King
Salmon, Alaska, supported SB 160. He grew up in the guiding
profession and started packing as a kid; he earned his assistant
guide license when he turned 18 and got his registered guide
license six years ago. He is an avid hunter as well as a
subsistence user.
As a young guide, he wanted to emphasize the importance of the
DNR guide concession program to both the future of guiding as
well as to the wildlife resource. It will reduce conflicts in
the field, reduce pressure on game species, and will improve the
quality of experience for everybody. If SB 160 passes, everyone
including the wildlife resource will benefit.
CHAIR GIESSEL asked if he was worried as a new hunter that he
would have difficulty getting an area.
MR. KLUTSCH replied that he was not worried; a highly motivated
young registered guide, like himself, would definitely be able
to get one of these areas. He was recently awarded two Fish and
Wildlife Service permits.
3:58:00 PM
ATLIN DAUGHERTY, commercial fisherman and registered guide 1250,
representing himself, Juneau, Alaska, supported SB 160. He said
the guiding industry has declined both in quality and
opportunity in the last 25 years since it was deregulated. This
has to pass; it's what is needed.
CHAIR GIESSEL asked if he had concerns about getting an area as
a new young guide.
MR. DAUGHERTY answered no; he wasn't worried about getting one.
CHAIR GIESSEL said that was the end of invited testimony and she
start taking people who had signed in to testify on this issue.
3:59:27 PM
WADE WILLIS, representing himself, Anchorage, Alaska, opposed SB
160. He said he is a former employee of the Alaska Department of
Fish and Game (ADF&G) and a 25-year resident hunter, and passing
SB 160 wouldn't help the resident hunter. He said the Board of
Game is the root of the problem; the chair, Ted Spraker, just
testified that guides were going into areas and overharvesting
wildlife and then going into other areas to overharvest wildlife
there. The Board of Game should never allow an area to be over-
harvested under any circumstance, but it is allowing
unsustainable harvest in some areas and trying to shuck that
reality by telling them they don't have to allocate properly
between user groups (resident v. non-resident). There are areas
that require all the harvestable surplus to go to a resident
harvest, he said, and this GCP doesn't address that at all. He
said the Big Game Commercial Services Board has the authority to
restrict guides from moving from one area to another every other
year and it could "get rid of the bad apples in the guiding
industry" and they refuse to do it.
SENATOR BISHOP asked him if he thought there was a problem.
MR. WILLIS answered yes; there is a limited resource and every
year more people, residents and non-residents, want to hunt. A
small minority of guides want to own the industry, but they
don't represent the majority of the guides. If there isn't
enough game for guides, they have to realize they are working in
areas where there is harvestable surplus available for non-
residents. He said the drawing system works, because guides need
a contract before they apply for the hunt and everybody who
"wins" the draw is guaranteed to get a guide. DNR can't do it,
because its mission is to "maximize the use of resources."
Legislators need to tell the Board of Game and Commercial
Services Board to do the job they have been tasked to do.
4:07:33 PM
BRAD DENNISON, Master Hunting Guide 138, representing himself,
Sitka, Alaska, supported SB 160. He said he had submitted
supportive testimony previously and that he now faces the same
overcrowding issues on state land as in the early 1990s. The
system they came up with then is very similar to the DNR system,
which isn't perfect, but it works. The system for the National
Forest went into effect 15 years ago and continues to work.
Federal Preserves and Refuges to the north have similar controls
in place. The state is behind the curve a bit, but there is an
opportunity to push this forward and get back on track. A
drawing is a poor option.
4:09:41 PM
"SMOKEY" DON DUNCAN, Master Guide 136, representing himself,
Fairbanks, Alaska, opposed SB 160. He makes his living 100
percent exclusively as a guide on state land. You couldn't give
him a federal area and he loved working with DNR. He had
operated in a crowded guide use area with up to 17 other guides
and this area will see a huge reduction in guides under the GCP,
none of whom are asking for this plan.
He said he would be a survivor under the GCP in all of his
areas, but he was against it, because it has too many fatal
flaws. He had submitted a detailed letter that counteracts all
the lies and half-truths they had been hearing. Contrary to what
they have heard, the current system is working extremely well
across the state.
MR. DUNCAN said the proponents of this bill had failed to look
at the devastating ramifications of a GCP to the industry and
the state. This is a land and resource grab by those who want to
pay nothing for exclusivity. In the Owsichek decision the state
must receive fair compensation for a guide use area concession
to be legal. Simply put, DNR's plan will fail a court challenge,
because it lacks a fair market bid component based on the area.
Instead, all of the areas are valued the same, "which is
insane."
He said the GCP in SB 160 failed to include air taxis and
transporters. If those aren't included in the solution, nothing
has been accomplished. He said ADF&G and DNR were forced to
support this program by the Governor; the rank and file
employees do not. Big Game Commercial Services Board and the
Board of Game members, all appointed by the Governor, have
stacked the Alaska Professional Hunters Association (APHA) since
2005.
MR. DUNCAN said he would guarantee that 50 percent of the guides
will be put out of business, 30 percent will be hurt, and 20
percent will "come out smelling like money." Further, he said
there are only 408 guides and DNR has only 300 opportunities. He
uses all three of his guide use areas to make a living.
Since 1990, 6,500 assistant guides and 800 registered guides
have dropped out, so the guide population is not growing. The
sad fact is the guide concession plan will only solve a few
problems in a few areas short-term and this is a statewide
solution to a local problem that should be dealt with by the
Board of Game.
They have heard repeatedly that the industry wants this GCP, but
that's not true; only 10-20 percent of the industry wants it.
The Guide Board and DNR refused numerous requests to survey
those in the industry; they didn't do it because they knew what
the survey would say.
The claim that the GCP will eliminate the problem with BLM is
not true, because BLM will still issue permits to those people.
The DNR point system strongly favors guides who have been in an
area for a long time and that is the exact same reason that the
two previous guide boards were sunset. And again, it can't be
considered conservation or stewardship of the land if air taxis
are allowed to bring in an unlimited number of people to any
area they want at any time.
4:15:06 PM
TIM BOOCH, Master Guide Outfitter 176, representing himself,
Kodiak, Alaska, opposed SB 160 saying he had zero conflict in
his area. He had been a Kodiak resident for the past 33 years
and has conducted guided moose and brown bear hunts on state
land from DNR camps that he had paid for and was personally
responsible for the last 17 years. He knows where his neighbors
are, where the residents hunt, and what the use is.
He hoped they had a chance to read his written comments that
contested a number of false statements and purposeful
disinformation that was part of the DNR testimony regarding the
APHA/DNR concession program. They began their presentations with
proclamations that the federal-style limited guide concession
program was developed due to there being "no regulation in place
regarding the guide industry on state land." Additional false
statements were presented as fact such as: guides never knowing
where their neighbors were and guides crawling all over each
other. His position was that there is strong appropriate
regulation in place that has provided a way for multiple user
groups to utilize the resource and have a quality experience.
He suggested alternatives to the GCP:
-Eliminate the 14-day statewide DNR commercial recreational camp
permit. Guides who use this type of permit have immunity from
accountability for their impact on the resource and these
permits provide no record of where they have camped.
-Include DNR commercial recreational camp permits in the Big
Game Commercial Services Board regulation.
-Apply Game Management Unit 9 regulations statewide.
-Adopt the caveats of the Kodiak Model Brown Bear drawing permit
guidelines and apply them to all existing and new drawing permit
allocations.
-Require all commercial service providers to have a transporter
license and include them in the professional ethics standards
found in the Big Game Commercial Services Board under ACC code.
-Hold resident sport hunters to the same ethical standards
commercial guides are regulated under and include these
standards in the hunting regulations.
-Enforce the standards with prosecutions, fines, and punishment.
MR. BOOCH said the GCP was initiated by a few professional
members of a private sport hunting guide association, the APHA
that does not represent the entire guide industry on state land;
its membership represents approximately 10 percent of the guide
industry.
This is not a conservation issue; it is a commerce issue. He had
been a member of APHA since 1996 until he dissolved his
membership this year due to the Board of Directors' refusing to
address his complaints to them concerning the unethical action
of two of their high-profile members during this past fall
hunting season on the Alaska State Peninsula. This is the agenda
of a handful of guides who want to eliminate their competition.
He urged giving as much support as possible to existing agencies
- the Board of Game, the Big Game Commercial Services Board, and
the Troopers - that were tasked with the allocation process.
He said the GCP will not eliminate the drawing process. Another
APHA statement by Mr. Tiffany that the GCP will stop BLM from
instigating a federal-style concession plan on state land isn't
true. He wanted everyone to look at each other as team members
on this.
4:22:25 PM
THOR STACEY, lobbyist, Alaska Professional Hunters Association
(APHA), Juneau, Alaska, supported SB 160. He compared this
resource issue to the Kenai River. For many years the members of
Responsible Kenai River Fishing Guides have come before the
legislature asking to be regulated for the benefit of the
resource and for their future with the same types of arguments
such as the Board of Fisheries can handle it, there's no
resource issue, we don't know what's going on. They are hearing
from the opposition to the GCP that was never put in place, but
one thing they do know is that there isn't a guide industry on
the Kenai River right now, because it doesn't have any fish. The
GCP works on federal land and it should be used on state land
for the survival of something that is valuable, precious, and
something that should be renewable.
SENATOR DYSON asked if we'll see the same as what is happening
on federal land.
MR. STACEY responded that he meant to say because the federal
concessions were put on federal lands over 20 years ago, they
know what the result of those types of concessions are and what
quality of animals and resource exist where there are
concessions. Yet, under the same board processes the Big Game
Commercial Services and Board of Game don't have the adequate
tools to ensure a sustainable future where allocation needs are
met by Alaska residents and the small percentage of non-resident
hunters that the guide industry relies on are not in conflict
with subsistence users or state resident hunting. The template
for those concession programs was developed in Senate Resources;
it just wasn't passed. Those concession programs have been
successful.
4:25:38 PM
SENATOR DYSON said he understood that it was represented that if
we just did it like the feds have done it, everything would be
wonderful, but that is not what he is saying.
MR. STACEY answered that was what he was saying in essence,
except they wished that the state was administering the
concessions instead of the feds, because the state had the
opportunity to do this program immediately following the Supreme
Court case in 1988 and for a variety of political reasons and
arguments in opposition to this program, the legislature didn't
act - didn't vote it up or down. They know what the result on
state land has been, an unregulated commercial industry using a
renewable resource, and that where the industry was regulated on
federal land it's been a success.
4:26:41 PM
CLIFFORD SMITH, Registered Guide 1318, representing himself,
Wasilla, Alaska, opposed SB 160. He supported previous
statements in opposition. He said both boards are loaded with
APHA members and almost every supporter of this bill already has
a private federal concession that they solely use. He implored
them to look at the truth: this is purely a land resource grab
by a private hunting club. The Board of Game has the right and
the ability to fix any problems they see with the overharvesting
of animals and the Commercial Services Board has the ability and
power to take care of any bad or unlawful guiding on state, and
federal land, or anywhere in the State of Alaska. This will just
exclude guides and destroy the industry.
He said you already have to be a very committed person to even
want to try to get a registered guide license let alone have the
resources to commit to becoming a commercial operator anywhere,
private or state.
4:29:36 PM
AL GILLIAM, Registered Master Guide 185, representing himself,
Haines, Alaska, supported SB 160. Approximately 80 percent of
his annual income comes from the guiding business. He said he
had sent letters of support and an email attachment which was a
recent news release announced by Karen Loefler, U.S. Attorney,
District of Alaska regarding recent federal court convictions of
two Haines, Alaska, hunting guides who were charged as a result
of Operation Bruin; they were hunting on state lands. Operation
Bruin was a three-year long field investigation by the Alaska
Wildlife Troopers and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, which
terminated in the fall of 2011. It was one of the largest busts
for wildlife-related offenses in the history of Alaska. One of
the long-time guides prosecuted had a track record of guiding
infractions spanning decades. And if the state had long ago
instigated a guide concession program such as the one in SB 160
that individual would not have qualified for a concession area
based on his past violation record alone.
The money and time spent on this operation along with the
associated legal expenses would have been avoided if they
already had a guide concession program in place.
CHAIR GIESSEL asked him to send his letter to her so committee
members could see it.
4:32:22 PM
STEVE PERRINS, Master Guide 123, representing himself, Rainy
Pass Lodge, Alaska, supported SB 160. He said his lodge was
commemorated in 2012 by the legislature as the oldest hunting
lodge in Alaska with 75 years of service. He started working
with APHA about eight years ago and asked them to help get a
program set up because of the inherent problems with
overcrowding.
MR. PERRINS suggested adding "transferability with some
tweaking." In relation to a new guide getting into the business
he explained that it takes a guide approximately two years to
get his training as a packer and three years as an assistant
guide before qualifying to test as registered guide for a total
of five or six years. With a GCP or on federal land today he
would then be able to apply for a concession and it may take him
another 10-year cycle before he gets enough points to get that.
He said another way to do that is the good old free enterprise
way of working with an owner/operator and eventually buying him
out. Mr. Perrin said he has four boys who are guides in the
family business and they hope to take over some day with his
grandson. A GCP with no transferability makes it hard for
someone to want to invest time and money for something that in
10 years may be taken away.
On federal land, recently a young guide testified that he had
just won four concessions over and above guides that were more
qualified in most cases; however, he had someone else in the
industry write his prospectus. He also understood that this
young person had never signed a guiding contract prior to that.
So, they want to be careful about getting into a concession
program without some tweaking.
Transferability is not the same as selling the resource; rather
it is an incentive for good stewardship, which has to be a
priority for both resident and non-resident hunting.
MR. PERRINS said today's guides in many cases do not have a
lodge, but a Super Cub with 35 inch tires; they are mobile and
that inherently is not a good thing for conservation. If they
had a GCP and an area, they would be forced to farm it properly
or they would put themselves out of business. So, with a five-
year check-in half way through their term, if they are doing
things improperly, they'd be stopped.
This program is a great improvement for the resident hunter. He
prefers to let them use his camps and works something out with
them so he doesn't interrupt their experience or his hunters'
experience. Without a GCP, the Board of Game has been saying
that it will create a permit system, and with that he thought
the industry dies or becomes all part-time operators and the
quality of hunts will go down in Alaska, because investment
incentive will go away.
MR. PERRINS related that he bought an area in Kodiak under the
pre-Owsichek ruling and had a viable business, was booked three
years in advance, and was the top price in his market. He no
longer has that area and basically his brown bear guiding
operation and his reputation for being able to hunt there is
gone; that income has disappeared. So, that permit system will
not do what is needed in this state.
He concluded by saying that he preferred to see the Big Game
Commercial Services Board as their industry representative;
there are overcrowding and ethics problems and a guide
concession program is needed for the long-term.
4:38:28 PM
HENRY TIFFANY, Master Guide 144, representing himself,
Fairbanks, Alaska, supported SB 160. He clarified that he spoke
on behalf of the Big Game Commercial Services Board on Monday in
support of SB 160, but today he is speaking as a life-long
Alaska resident. The time is well past due and there is still
time to correct the issue.
4:40:14 PM
MIKE COWAN, Registered Guide 1126, representing himself,
Soldotna, Alaska, opposed SB 160. He said guiding provides 100
percent of his income and as a member of APHA, he agreed with
some of the things they lobby for, but this was not one of them.
The language and format is too complex and it doesn't address
the overcrowding problem entirely. He agreed that something must
be done, but now only one part of the equation is being
addressed and that's only the guides. The problem is not just
the guides; it's all air charters and air taxis that can drop
people off wherever they want.
He stated that SB 160 does not address emergency transfers or
any kind of transferability. He urged them to study and address
the entire problem, which he thought was conservation. He also
pointed out that non-resident hunters provide a lot of revenue
to the state that helps fund a lot of programs in communities
throughout the state and the dollars generated by the concession
program will only benefit DNR. "Where would they get the funding
to start it, in the first place?" he asked. His closing thought
was that there is no mention of emergency transferability in
case of death or major illness and all guides would be impacted
by the financial burden this program would impose in that event.
4:44:16 PM
FRANK BISHOP, Master Guide 191, representing himself, Kodiak,
Alaska, whole-heartedly supported SB 160. He said the
transporters are a major problem and causing the overcrowding on
state land, which is where he guides.
4:45:22 PM
JASON BUNCH, Registered Guide 1311, representing himself,
Kodiak, Alaska, supported SB 160. He trusted that the DNR would
work hard to establish a viable program before it's too late.
4:46:25 PM
DAVID LAZER, Master Guide 175, representing himself, Los
Angeles, California, opposed SB 160. He had been guiding in
Alaska for 44 years and pointed out that there are 408
registered master guides in Alaska and only 126 APHA members;
the little guy doesn't have a vote. This is all slanted; in 1989
the Supreme Court said that guide areas are unconstitutional and
they actually need to kick the federal government out of the
state.
MR. LAZER said guides who are confined to an area don't
interfere with the residents who can go anywhere. The
transporters and air taxis need to be controlled, as well.
4:47:50 PM
ANNA STOCKER, representing herself, Wasilla, Alaska, opposed SB
160.
4:48:48 PM
NATE TURNER, Registered Guide 1036, Vice Chair, Board of Game,
Fairbanks, Alaska, supported SB 160. He said his entire
livelihood comes from either trapping or guiding, so he had two
perspectives. He asked which perspective they wanted to hear.
CHAIR GIESSEL said whichever he chose.
MR. TURNER said from the Board's perspective, development of
this program has been both requested and strongly supported by
the Board of Game since the beginning of these discussions.
Since the Board is tasked with the primary responsibility
regarding most management and policy decision regarding wildlife
in Alaska including the allocation decisions between both users
and types of uses, their work often involves regulating the
guiding industry even if it's indirectly. They have often been
challenged to create very complicated permits and hunt
structures and unique permit stipulations that are sometimes
burdensome for the ADF&G to manage in the attempt to both limit
the extent of guided non-resident participation in areas where
resident hunters or resources may be unduly affected and at
other times even creating complicated hunt structures in the
attempt to provide stability for the guiding industry where
external issues threaten to severely impact or force guided hunt
opportunity off the landscape.
He said this program will help the Board of Game address two
primary goals that it has established: limiting highly
competitive guide activity in areas of concern and providing
some assurance that this historic type of hunting opportunity
and experience has a place in Alaska's future. This program will
directly help mitigate user conflicts in sub-unit 20(A), the
Ward River drainage, and sub-unit 19(C), sheep country in the
Chandelar Region. Reducing the number of guide operations in
these areas will bring direct benefit to resident hunters, other
uses, the remaining guide operations, and their hunting guests.
The closest example of how the landscape would look after
implementation of the proposed GCP are on U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Refuges. This type of program can actually help with the
management goals of the board. Hunting pressure and conflicts
are rising dramatically in ANWR; the board has heard a lot about
it through recent public testimony and other sources. These in-
the-field conflicts mean, in a general sense, that there are too
many hunters for the limited amount of hunting space and
resource, and many have requested that non-resident hunters be
severely restricted or even eliminated from the landscape in
that entire region. But many in the public are unaware that the
entire ANWR area is currently under limited guide concessions
and non-resident Dall sheep hunters are required to be guided,
and that even these limited uses have been reduced over the last
15 years through the federal competitive process. Having the GCP
in place will help the board more accurately identify and
regulate the conflicts and concerns in this region and other
regions, as needed. This will not fix all the allocative
problems or conflict issues in the state, but it is a necessary
first step, Mr. Turner said. The public perception is that non-
residents are the sole source of the problem regardless of what
the data says and when limitations are placed on hunters and
hunter access, it is necessary that the non-residents be the
first to be impacted.
He said it's important to remember when looking at conservation
concerns or conflicts in the field that the board has to address
them, and when they do that they have a "stepped order" that
they are sometimes mandated to follow it and often they choose
to follow just because it's the right thing to do. Obviously,
the non-resident hunter is the first one that has to be impacted
by any changes in regulation.
MR. TURNER said it's interesting that this program came from the
guiding industry to the board and various boards, even to the
Governor's office. This industry asked to be regulated partially
in a sense of pre-emptive self-defense in realizing that if
something didn't fix a lot of the identified issues somebody
would fix it for them and the guiding industry might not be able
to survive under that outcome. So, it would be a wise move to
try and shape what that outcome would be from the outset.
He said the board strongly feels it will need to be part of the
administration of this program in one way or another as it
addresses potential limitations on hunter numbers or hunting
opportunities for guided hunters or non-residents in general,
because it will allow for the continuance of a familiar and
respected public process for all the affected parties. They also
believe that the Big Game Commercial Services Board should
retain its authority as to whether there should be limitations
on the number of assistant guides, for example, and other areas
of authority that currently reside with it. It may be necessary
to form some sort of a joint board process or have that built
into the program to address special circumstances.
4:56:51 PM
From his personal experience guiding for 17 years on both
federal and state lands, Mr. Turner said they won't hear a few
perspectives from the people that oppose this program on public
record for a reason. A lot of people who are afraid of this
program are those that know they will likely not receive a
concession area due to having a history of wildlife or guiding
violations or permit compliance issues; those who have built
their business model upon a wide network of subordinate
registered guides so that they can operate in multiple areas
annually across the state, essentially subcontracting, which is
contrary to the intent of the current three guide use area
system, most federal permit requirements, and the intent of
state law; those that know they have a long list of client
complaints on file with the state, those that know they will
stand to lose any areas that they gain through this program if
they continue to use threatening or aggressive hunting tactics
on resident hunters, those who do not consider themselves full-
time professional guides who are afraid that they won't receive
an area; those that believe government shouldn't meddle with
anything they do regardless of the circumstance; and those who
are afraid generally that they won't obtain an area because of
inexperience within the industry or the profession.
He said some of those perspectives have merit and deserve due
consideration, but some don't and they should be taken at face
value, but they won't be mentioned on the record.
In closing, Mr. Turner said, he supported a guide concession
program, but he wanted intent language or something that would
convince him that the guides could have more of an impact on how
this program is administered. Most of the opposing guides would
be for this bill if something like that was added.
4:59:19 PM
STEVE PERRINS, II, Registered Guide 1295, representing himself,
Alaska Range Remote Hunting Lodge, supported SB 160. He was
calling on a satellite phone from the Alaska Range and stated
that the industry desperately needs a guide concession program.
His family owns the oldest hunting lodge in Alaska and he works
for the lodge year round with the goal of someday being able to
take over what his Dad started and what he had helped to build,
that being their guiding business. But if the GCP does not allow
for transferability, he might as well go out on his own and
compete with his father.
Transferability is also needed for conservation reasons, Mr.
Perrins said. If you cannot sell your area after years of good
stewardship, then many guides will be faced in their final years
of guiding with an end to their income; many may be tempted to
book a few more hunters in their final years and some unethical
ones may even completely hunt out their area to assure their
financial future. On the other hand, if they know they can sell
a well-managed area with a healthy game population, that is even
more of an incentive to help the resource.
He said the DNR GCP seems to focus too much on how well someone
can write up a good business plan and operating strategy and not
enough on the experience, time in the field, and investment in
the area. As a newer, younger guide, he sees the very likely
possibility of a healthy industry if the GCP is properly
administered and the GCP could create many opportunities for
younger guides to work their way up the ranks and take over or
buy an area. Alaska could have a better conservation program by
eliminating the overharvesting of species and stop falling short
of places like Canada, Russia, and Africa, as a premier hunting
destination.
5:03:34 PM
COKE WALLACE, Master Guide 172, representing himself, Healy,
Alaska, opposed SB 160. He said he operates in the same guide
use area as he has operated in for 20-plus years. Unfortunately
he is in one of the contentious areas and didn't think another
layer of bureaucracy was an answer to the problem.
He had encouraged all along the way giving the Big Game
Commercial Services Board or other boards of that stature the
tools necessary to take care of the problems. He had dealt with
being burned out and vandalized including this past winter by
some unscrupulous brothers in the industry. He had brought the
"pirates" or miscreants to the DNR but nothing came of it. DNR
has not shown him that they can handle what they have on their
plate now and he didn't think more responsibilities could be
heaped on. This problem needs fixing, but a guide concession
program is not the answer. He said a good professional industry
regulates itself like a dentist or a doctor.
5:06:28 PM
TRACY VREM, Master Guide 96, Chugiak, Alaska, supported SB 160
"warts and all." He said he gets 90 percent of his income
between hunt guiding and fish guiding. The only time he does
other sorts of work is when seasons and bag limits get closed
and the non-resident hunter gets cut out of the allocation
system and he has to find another job to support himself.
Thankfully, that hadn't happened since 1998 on the Alaska
Peninsula for caribou.
He related that he started in this business pre-Owsichek
decision working his way up the ranks. He ended up buying out a
guide's improvements on the Alaska Peninsula thinking that
having an exclusive guide area or joint use was the only way to
go.
CHAIR GIESSEL thanked him and finding no questions, closed
public testimony.
5:08:48 PM
At ease from 5:08 to 5:09 p.m.
CHAIR GIESSEL said SB 160 would be held in committee until
Friday.
5:09:44 PM
CHAIR GIESSEL adjourned the Senate Resources Standing Committee
meeting at 5:09 p.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| SB 160 Testimony JoeWant 20140319.pdf |
SRES 3/19/2014 3:30:00 PM |
SB 160 |
| SB 160 Opp Letter ArthurAndreis 20142614.pdf |
SRES 3/19/2014 3:30:00 PM |
SB 160 |
| SB 160 StevnPerrins 201400319.pdf |
SRES 3/19/2014 3:30:00 PM |
SB 160 |
| SB 160 Supp Letter Wayne Kubat 20140319.pdf |
SRES 3/19/2014 3:30:00 PM |
SB 160 |
| SB 160 Supp Letter AlGilliam 20140315.pdf |
SRES 3/19/2014 3:30:00 PM |
SB 160 |
| SB 160 AlGilliam INTERNATIONAL WILDLIFE INVESTIGATION RESULTS IN CONVICTION AGAINST HAINES BIG GAME GUIDE(1).pdf |
SRES 3/19/2014 3:30:00 PM |
SB 160 |
| Sb 160 Supp Letter JoeLetarte 20140319.pdf |
SRES 3/19/2014 3:30:00 PM |
SB 160 |